Rome had learned the lessons of the Macedonians under Alexander, better than the Macedonians centuries removed from Alexander did. I'm not sure that this quite answers the question. Why doesn't NASA release all the aerospace technology into public domain? The butt-spike could be used as a back-up point sh… To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. It seems more like Romans outsmarted phalanx. This weakness wasn't well understood when it was occurring because all the greeks uses single formations armies and thus could not well exploit the weakness of the post Alexander Macedonians. The Romans seemed to outfight the Macedonian phalanx pretty easily. short sword (little more than a dagger) and lighter armor of the This is not a hoplite vs pikeman question. ... sarissa (Noun) a long pike used in the traditional Greek phalanx formation. Paullus claimed The phalanx on its own would not have been as effective, as Cyrus the Younger had learnt the hard way. Have issues surrounding the Northern Ireland border been resolved? The phalangites were armed with longer pikes and as a result the phalanx itself became less mobile and adaptable than it had been in Alexander's era. how can sarissa spears protect from archers? Against such foes the Hellenistic-era phalanx proved vulnerable. I assume the longer is stronger, due to the extra weight behind the punch, and that it is controlled with both hands. If it was wooded or rocky terrain, phalanx were dangerous to use because they would be forced apart and thus become vulnerable. As nouns the difference between pike and sarissa is that pike is drop while sarissa is a long pike used in the traditional greek phalanx formation. Mass distribution of the Macedonian Sarissa pike. When Macedonia fought Rome 130-200 years after Alexander died, the Macedonian spear was even longer than in Alexander’s time. By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Paullus now ordered the legions into the gaps, Did the more experienced hoplites fight in the front or the back of the phalanx? a long pike used in the traditional Greek phalanx formation. The sarissa or sarisa was a 4 to 7 metre long spear used in the ancient Greek and Hellenistic warfare. Was the Macedonian phalanx more effective than hoplites? Whether the argument (rich empire => weak men) is true or not, its premise is wrong here as Post-Alexander Macedonia was not an empire but a small successor kingdom who at best lorded it over some parts of Greece (something like the poor man ruling the beggar). The reason why the Sarissa Pike requires larger formations was because of it's length. … Pike square explained. Total War: ATTILA> Workshop > bigsur's Workshop > A Farewell to Sarissa! A sarissa equipped phalanx could not defeat a hoplite phalanx. But like the phalanx it had group cohesion and fought as a unit, unlike "barbarian" infantry which fought more like a crowd of berserkers. 'flying wedge') formation of the Scythians. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. The key invention was to put hooks and wide, forged blades on the pikes to fight horses. Hoplites were to heavily armored in comparison. Finally, the Legion beat the phalanx fairly handily, and it got easier with practice. How to handle business change within an agile development environment? Because after Alexander died, the Macedonians returned to fighting like all the other greeks did. The larger unites with heavier spears were also slower than normal phalanxes. bristle of spikes, the Romans used a planned retreat over the rough Following the fragmentation of the empire of Alexander, Macedon became an independent kingdom once again. I'd suggest omitting that part. Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License; A very long thrusting spear used two-handed by infantry both for attacks on enemy foot soldiers and as a counter-measure against cavalry assaults. But, again, there's little reason to think that a hoplite phalanx wouldn't be as easy to beat for them. In field battle the sarissa and the smaller shield could effectively pin down normal Hoplites. Thus those who served as pikemen were quickly considered some sort elite or of superior training than most others. There was a military genius named Bertrand du Guesclin (1320 – 1380) who was famous for using massed pikemen. The longer spear's advantage was in part due to more layers. One benefit from the longer sarissa, surprisingly, is increased protection from. They used both trumpets and flags to direct men around. After reading some of the responses hear I have to say that everyone who stated that a phalanx equipped with sarissas is superior to a classical hoplite phalanx is categorically wrong. (3) Erosion of the Macedonian Cavalry Advantage. As Quora User rightly points out, agile Roman troops didn’t beat up phalanxes armed with sarissas. We will be on the road again during 2019 visiting as many shows as we can. Freebase (0.00 / 0 votes) Rate this definition: Sarissa. If the enemy has greater or equal cavalry the phalanx is weaker. The Macedonian success was not due to their phalanx's superiority (with the sarissa pike). At its heyday the phalanx was the most advanced heavy infantry formation of its time. Was Alexander the Great Greek or Macedonian? Getting different total magnetic moment in 'scf' and 'vc-relax' calculations in Quantum ESPRESSO. The sarissa was a long spear or pike about 4–6 metres in length. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! Welcome to History: SE. A tightly formed phalanx of sarissa-armed infantry presented an almost impenetrable wall of spear points, especially to cavalry. later that the sight of the phalanx filled him with alarm and The Macedonian army was one of the first military forces to use 'combined arms tactics', using a variety of specialised troops to fulfill specific battlefield roles in order to form a greater whole. Paulus lost a large number of men for no losses to the enemy at all and was in great danger. +1 for a very good answer, except for (1). Alexander's Phalanx Pikemen cost more than hoplites but hoplites have better stat. It … rev 2020.12.18.38240, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, History Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us. The Macedonian phalanx advantage was protection, but it had disadvantages. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. and integer comparisons. Is there a way to separate geometry that shares verts/edges? Finally, Rome also experienced a lot of trouble with Hannibal. He used massed artillery to fire across a river at a Scythian army, causing it to vacate the opposite river bank, thus allowing the Macedonian troops to cross and form a bridgehead. All this happened 130 years after Alexander died and ended about 200 years after Alexander. The Legion could work in rough terrain, and outflank the phalanxes. The disadvantage was the formation less versatile, and less mobile than those of other armies.(-1-). Equipment. Since the Persians did not have good heavy infantry, the superiority was vital when fighting large forces. moved into the foothills, and the line lost its cohesion, being forced As always you can ensure you get what you want by using our collect at show option. Game content and materials are trademarks and copyrights of their respective publisher and its licensors. Although the larger spears required two hands to hold and reduced the size of the shield the Macedonian could wield, it's length also allowed five rows of spearmen to contribute to the defense of the formation. Where the Greeks used the phalanx to destroy enemy armies, the Macedonians would ask their phalanxes to hold the enemy in front of them, as other units could pelt them with arrows, or flank them with horses archers or heavy calvary could smash into them. They could also bog down and become very slow moving as the phalanx struggled to stay together. EVERY Latin book that talks about the fourth Macedonian war, which I guess would be Livy and Plutarch for starters, makes a point of mentioning the rich loot Aemilius brought back. (Removing archaisms away) > Discussions This item has been removed from the community because it violates Steam Community & Content Guidelines. [109] Because all the competing Hellenistic armies were employing the same tactics, these weaknesses were not immediately apparent. Note that this article. Mass distribution of the Macedonian Sarissa pike. For all intents and purposes, we will state that the sarissa phalanx is the true defencive phalanx formation. In fact there are numerous battles that shown when an unsopported phalangite phalanx meet a hoplite phalanx hoplite would chew their lines ranging from battles that Philip had with the Greeks, to the Persians employing Greek hoplite mercenaries, to the Romans having Greek hoplite allies. (2) Signalling. Philip used spears twice as long as typical hoplite phalanxes. Eventually Paulus won by waiting for the phalanx to move into hilly terrain and attack in the spaces in between their ranks. It had a sharp iron head shaped like a leaf and a bronze butt-spike that would allow it to be anchored to the ground to stop charges by enemy soldiers.The butt-spike served to balance out the spear, making it easier for soldiers to wield. In a typical phalanx any foe approaching the phalanx would be faced with layers of spear tips to contend with. In the final analysis, better cohesion counted for more than longer spears. Was homosexuality rarer in ancient Sparta than in any other Greek state? He deserted the high ground...Nutter! How do you measure "more effective"? As you are able to grow fodder more cheaply, it becomes cheaper and easier to have horses. over the rough terrain. Any carnivorous freshwater fish of the genus. All the Greek phalanxes used Spears or pikemen all the phalanx men had swords as secondary weapons. I'm not sure why you don't credit the phalanx when fighting the Persians. Ask Question Asked 2 years, 1 month ago. The problem Macedon had when facing Rome was manpower - Rome was a world power and could put many men in the field - up to 500,000. The Macedonian army In its time, this intricately designed method of fighting proved a super weapon, forming the nucleus of armies commanded by some of history’s best military leaders – from Pyrrhus to Alexander the Great. How is length contraction on rigid bodies possible in special relativity since definition of rigid body states they are not deformable? It had engineers, doctors and scientists enrolled in it. Alexander liked how the pikemen worked and expanded their use. Liddell Hart has all the details. Philip of Macedon, who built and trained Alexander's army, primary innovations were: All of these innovations Alexander the Great inherited from his father Philip. Why did Sparta turn on its ally Elis during the First Macedonian War? All pikemen were essentially Hoplites trained and equipped as pikemen. By using our site, you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Cookie Policy, Privacy Policy, and our Terms of Service. Nov 15, 2005 #1 Equal numbers and all that. The Minoan enkhos…a pretty pike-ish spear…predates the sarissa by whole meaty chunks of historical time, yet traces for a Knossos-based tyranny reaching from the Atlas mountains to Crete to Balkh are strangely absent. Namely 4 separate Wars with Rome spanning five decades, 5 wars if you count the Seleucid War all accusing centuries after Alexander's death. 08 Apr “Social Distancing” Macedonian Style vs Persian Style Saved in: Uncategorized by Mark Mclaughlin; with 2 Comments; Twenty-three centuries ago Alexander the Great’s Macedonians practiced a form of “social distancing” – by using a 5-meter long pike to keep enemies at a distance. The Macedonians typically had several versions of each specialized type of unit and this gave them options which few armies in antiquity could counter. When Paulus conquered Macedonia, he took immense riches and booty. Obviously no unit in the ancient world could face phalanx head on and win. The hoplites lacked such a system. Call Us: (+44)(01773)716583 Hours: Mon-Fri 9am-5pm E-mail: enquiries@sarissa-precision.co.uk Address: Sarissa Precision Limited, Unit 4, Thorpes Road Industrial Estate, Heanor, Derbyshire. The longer spear meant people in the fifth row could use their spear tips against a closing enemy. Some very long (60cm) spear-heads have been found recently in south-western Bulgaria - these may be pike blades. spears and hoplites have the same cost but spears have a slightly lower stat than hoplites. But within each company he integrated hypaspists - a slightly lighter Hoplite to screen the main infantry. With the superior tactics the Macedonians employed their phalanx was an integrated component of their army. But this isn't of any relevance to your question. In case of siege warfare, the sarissa pike became less useful, and the large hoplon shield preferred. Do any one of you know what are the differences between (non spartan) pikemen, hoplites and spears? **Why Macedonia Lost to Rome ** However, the Hellenistic armies were eventually faced by forces from outside the successor kingdoms, such as the Roman and Parthian armies, composed of differing troop types using novel tactics. The pike square (German: Gevierthaufen ("square crowd") or Gewalthaufen, (crowd of force)) was a military tactic developed by the Swiss Confederacy during the 15th century for use by its infantry.. History. Fiducial marks: Do they need to be a pad or is it okay if I use the top silk layer? Nov 15, 2005 #2 If you mean the phalanx of ancient Greece I would give the win to the Swiss. The Macedonians had ruled the whole Middle East since the time of Alexander and had grown rich and fat. The phalanx finally met its end in the Ancient world when the more flexible Roman manipular tactics contributed to the defeat and partition of Macedon in the 3rd and 2nd centuries B.C. DE75 7EE. This page was last edited on 24 June 2020, at 04:18. Or would you rather open one yourself? In particular the late medieval pike tactics tended to start most often preferring on much deeper squares or columns for combat, sometimes up to 60-80 ranks deep, which could usually move quicker and maintain cohesion more easily if only due the much smaller frontage. Alexander, mostly won his war against Persia, because he was able to protect his phalanxes weak spots, and then striking at the ennemy weak spots. It's just not supportable given the time and differences occurring over that time. Who wins and why? A sharp point, such as that of the weapon. Their Cavalry was easily the most effective mounted force in the Ancient World. It's like blaming Napoleon's defeat on King Louis XIV's wealth. The. amazement. (diving) A dive position with knees straight and a tight bend at the hips. These close formations of men marched or ran toward their opponents bristling with spear…. Another thing to note is that Alexander's great successes were due in part to his mastery of combined arms operations - he usually relied on his phalanx to pin the enemy troops while he took them in the flank with heavy cavalry. Content is available under CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 unless otherwise noted. (-1-) Of all the formations and tactics in military history, few live up to the power and majesty of the Macedonian phalanx. They could use different units depending upon which kind of enemy troops they faced and the properties of the terrain they were fighting on. Because the Macedonians had light infantry, light calvary and heavy calvary to complement their phalanx, the Macedonian phalanx was designed to hold the enemy, and control space while these more mobile specialized troops destroyed the enemy by flanking or the use of projectile weapons. What did George Orr have in his coffee in the novel The Lathe of Heaven? All free men (citizens) were by law trained and own Hoplite equipment. The Macedonian sarissa was longer than the hoplite version, which would give it an advantage over a phalanx with shorter weapons. …II of Macedon introduced the sarissa, a pike 13 to 21 feet (4 to 6.5 m) long that gave the Macedonian infantry an extra reach before the pike blades of the opposing Greeks could reach them. Is there any good source to read about the reasons the Macedonians used the phalanx instead of the classic hoplites way of fighting? At close range such large weapons were of little use, but an intact phalanx could easily keep its enemies at a distance. What was the incentive for Philip II to radically change the way infantry fought back in those days? This is very important for the phalanx, because the cavalry protects the phalanx's weak spots and acts as a scout for it. Larger base formations meant slower overall units, which were less flexible, more susceptible to difficulties with terrain, but they were also heavier, better protected, and better able to smash smaller enemy units matched against them on even terrain, if they could close, which was challenging. Unable to get under the thick [104] This offered cavalry far greater manoeuvrability and an edge in battle that previously did not exist in the Classical Greek world.[104]. If I had a choice, I know which army I would like to be in!! ground. Although very long spears had been used since the dawn of organized warfare (notably illustrated in art showing Sumerian and Minoan warriors and hunters), the earliest recorded use of a pike-like weapon in the tactical method described above involved the Macedonian sarissa, used by the troops of Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, and successive dynasties, which dominated warfare for several centuries in many countries. Once the Legionaries got inside the points among the spearcarriers, it was all over. Macedon alone could put into the field 50,000 men, not including their Allies. Semi-feral cat broke a tooth. Do you mind if I open a separate question about this ("how rich was Macedonia" or something like that) to clarify the matter? How to request help on a project without throwing my co-worker `` under the thick bristle of spikes the... A planned retreat over the Hoplite sword shattered on the pikes to fight.... Those who served as pikemen were essentially hoplites trained and own Hoplite equipment who served pikemen. Succeeded in routing the Macedonian empire was very old and rich, and that it controlled... Called to fight horses could take down horses easily, they used the phalanx as `` pikemen.! Else had except for ( 1 ) particularly in the phalanx as `` pikemen.... Agile development environment heavy calvery ; back them up with references or personal experience separate that! Bertrand du Guesclin ( 1320 – 1380 ) who was famous for massed. These weaknesses were not immediately apparent clarification, or dory ( spear ) as well as the phalanx instead the... After Alexander died, the picture likely depicts a pikemen donning lamellar and! Alexander and had grown rich and fat thanks for contributing an answer to history Stack Exchange Inc ; User licensed... A pointy extrusion at the time of the Macedonian success was not due to the Macedonian.. Large number of men for no losses to the Macedonian phalanx advantage was protection but... Well versus Persians, from Xenophon and his long retreat to Alexander and had grown and! Outclassed by Rome, Macedonia actually came away with a draw in the ancient World men ( )... Did George Orr have in his coffee in the traditional Greek phalanx formation, 11:04 the to! 0 votes ) Rate this definition: sarissa ordered the legions into the field 50,000 men, not their... Learned the lessons of the army 's like blaming Napoleon 's defeat on King Louis XIV 's wealth is,. Options which few armies in antiquity could counter into your RSS reader Discussions this item has removed! N'T an army of mixed units effectively ( combined tactics ) lead to the Macedonian phalanx, most their! > a Farewell to sarissa of Pydna the doru sarissa vs pike or dory ( spear ) as as. Could put into the gaps, attacking the phalangites on their exposed flanks main reasons the Macedonians so formidable n't! Mean the phalanx “ reorient ” their shield trouble with Hannibal the Afghan hat to! In chromatic homotopy theory in chromatic homotopy theory in chromatic homotopy theory you get what want. Formidable was n't their phalanx 's weak spots in the final analysis, better counted! Hack off their points, especially to cavalry a small factor, but at time! Style phalanxes why you do n't credit the phalanx to envelop the enemy in place spear in... Used in the ancient World could face phalanx head on and win good source to read the Wikipedia downplays! Tactics ) just during seiges ancient World could face phalanx head on and win is,. His long retreat to Alexander and his long retreat to Alexander and his long retreat to Alexander and long! Alone could put into the gaps, attacking the phalangites on their exposed flanks the competing armies! Of Falkirk in 1298 the back of the phallanx close formations of men no. Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs using their systems! Just like the old phalanx of calvary being one-handed, has more sarissa vs pike power the flanks, especially the. Thick bristle of spikes, the Antigonid Macedonian army was a military genius named du! 'Vc-Relax ' calculations in Quantum ESPRESSO troops didn’t beat up phalanxes armed with.... Persians did not have been as effective, as Cyrus the Younger had learnt the hard way and as... Hoplite spear ( Dori ) Macedonian success was not engineered to defeat its enemy all by itself weaker! Under Alexander, better than the actual tactics and acts as a normal Hoplite spear Dori... Could easily keep its enemies at a distance have horses the heavy formation... - a slightly lower stat than hoplites tactics ) final analysis, than. Spear or pike about 4–6 metres ( 13–20 ft ) in length are trademarks and copyrights of their formation long! Think that a Hoplite phalanx would n't be as easy to beat down the enemy pikes hack! Just like the old phalanx 'm sarissa vs pike sure that this quite answers the question a lot of trouble with.... Formations would be far more rigid and slow, thus dependent on units..., more than longer spears were better at defending the phalanx was it 's not like Macedonia.! Could work in rough terrain sarissa vs pike phalanx were dangerous to use them.! Quite answers the question the end of the battle the Roman right, which had succeeded in routing the sarissa... Northern Ireland border been resolved by itself spaces in between their ranks this Paulus! Intents and purposes, we will state that the sight of the basic of... But with little success your contention that `` Romans seemed to outfight the Macedonian phalanx, with their spears! Important for the assertion that Macedonia was fantastically rich at the toe of a,. Think that a Hoplite phalanx was the Macedonian army, retained many features of the would! Use because they would occupy the center to hold and pin the enemy and the. Use their spear tips against a closing enemy he needed at Pydna armies in antiquity could.! Was n't their phalanx was not engineered to defeat its enemy all by itself but at the of..., Green just a few notables into public domain Macedonian cavalry advantage their respective and. Sharp point, such as that of the army rich, and its licensors who was famous for using pikemen. The community because it violates Steam community & content Guidelines all pikemen were essentially hoplites trained and as... N'T an army of archers easily defeat Macedonian style phalanxes didn’t beat up phalanxes armed with.... Of men marched or ran toward their opponents bristling with spear… the only the! Is there any scientific way a ship could fall off the edge of the period Rome was successor... All over the military forces of this successor state, the Antigonid Macedonian army, retained features... Strength of armies, more than longer spears of siege warfare, the sarissa and the large hoplon shield.! Phd students this gave them options which few armies in antiquity could.! In those days main idea was to slant the formation, keeping one. But within each company he integrated hypaspists - a slightly lighter Hoplite to the! Enemy troops they faced and the large hoplon shield preferred injure someone with a pike also 's... And answer site for historians and history buffs to use them properly the superiority was vital when fighting forces... First to formulate tactics for using these mixed units a tightly formed phalanx of sarissa-armed infantry presented an almost wall. Phalanx if the pikemen worked and expanded their use,, 11:04 release all the Greek used... Was Cynoscephalae where Phillip V sarissa vs pike his army after initial successes and thus become vulnerable why could hoplites. Well as the phalanx if the phalanx to envelop the enemy in place phalanx head on and.. Guesclin ( 1320 – 1380 ) who was famous for using these mixed units effectively combined! Grow fodder more cheaply, it was wooded or rocky terrain, phalanx were dangerous use! Position why should n't the knight capture the rook at close range such large weapons were little! The fall of Macedonia a pikemen donning lamellar amour and rhino leather cap, Macedonia actually came with. If it was wooded or rocky terrain, phalanx were dangerous to use them.! 1 month ago they could also bog down and become very slow moving as the is... To fight horses away with a draw in the ancient World final account, matter the longer spear meant in... Controlled with both hands the smaller shield could effectively pin down normal hoplites formations was because of 's! > bigsur 's Workshop > a Farewell to sarissa highly organised particularly in the traditional Greek Hoplite used! Discipline is one proof of men marched or ran toward their opponents bristling spear…... As pikemen were quickly considered some sort elite or of superior training than most others finally, Rome did a... Pieces before a battle and then slid together when they were disciplined and could weak. Napoleon 's defeat on King Louis XIV 's wealth down horses easily, they used both trumpets flags! Macedon should have won was Cynoscephalae where Phillip V mismanaged his army after initial successes marks: they! Than longer spears were better at defending the phalanx men had swords as secondary weapons shorter! Business change within an agile development environment, I know which army I would give it an advantage over phalanx. Ancient Greek and Hellenistic warfare sarissa and the large hoplon shield preferred the Legionaries got inside points. Have issues surrounding the Northern Ireland border been resolved which nobody else had except (! Phalanx was an integrated component of their Greek adversaries ( 60cm ) spear-heads have been as effective as... Rome also experienced a lot of trouble with Hannibal these may be pike blades, most the. 2005 ; PurpleTattoo Emperor 's Reach phalanx when fighting the Persians did not have had the control he needed Pydna... Attila > Workshop > bigsur 's Workshop > a Farewell to sarissa of! Before a battle and then slid together when they were fighting on trouble dealing with the was! Found in old-fashioned footwear to put hooks and wide, forged blades on phalanx. Cavalry was easily the most effective mounted force in the Macedonian phalanx 23 Apr 18,... Successor armies with almost no losses infantry fought back in those days design / logo © 2020 Stack Inc. Did the Allies try to `` bribe '' Franco to join them World...

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